Reply To This Post Return to Posts Index VegSource Home
|From: ||Trevor Lockwood (220.127.116.11)
|Subject: ||Re: for those extenuating circumstances... |
Date: || November 30, 2013 at 3:01 pm PST|
In Reply to: Re: for those extenuating circumstances... posted by Dr. Doug Graham on November 30, 2013 at 1:27 pm:
Hello Dr Graham,
I have asked you several questions that you have yet
Again you like to point out that an overdose of salt
is toxic. You use toxicity so lets scientificly
From Yale about toxicity:
"A substance can produce the harmful effect
associated with its toxic properties only if it
reaches a susceptible biological system within your
body in a sufficient concentration (a high enough
dose). The toxic effect of a substance increases as
the exposure (or dose) to the susceptible biological
system increases. For all chemicals there is a dose
response curve, or a range of doses that result in a
graded effect between the extremes of no effect and
100% response (toxic effect). All chemical
substances will exhibit a toxic effect given a large
enough dose. If the dose is low enough even a highly
toxic substance will cease to cause a harmful
effect. The toxic potency of a chemical is thus
ultimately defined by the dose (the amount) of the
chemical that will produce a specific response in a
specific biological system."
According to this medical study:
"The toxic oral dose of salt is 0.5-1 g/kg of body
weight, whereas the fatal dose amounts to about 1-
3 g/kg of body weight, depending on the age, gender,
general health state, and other individual
Your example used an ounce (lets say 28g) as a toxic
dose of Salt. Typically, a very saltly meal may be
1000mg, but a therapeutic dosage of salt will be
much less. But anyway lets use a magnitude of 28:1
that would be considered toxic, a fatal dose would
have to be around 65g for a 65kg individual making
it a 65:1 ratio.
One girl died from excessive water consumption from
drinking six litres of water. People will not die
drinking six litres of water spread over time, but
the fatal aspect happened because it was consumed at
one time. It is not uncommon for people to drink 1L
of water at one time. Here we have a fatal dosage of
as little as 6:1 not even encroaching on the 65:1
ratio of salt fatality.
The only reason either salt or water is toxic
because it disturbs the delicate balance of normal
serum sodium levels that are between approximately
135 and 145 mEq/L (135 - 145 mmol/L).
Excessive salt consumption leads to hypernatraemia
and excessive water consumption leads to
Hypernatraemia is considered when plasma sodium
concentration are above 157 mEq/L and values above
180 mEq/L are associated with a high mortality rate.
Hyponatremia is generally defined as a serum level
of less than 135 mEq/L and is considered severe when
the serum level is below 125 mEq/L.
The only reason salt is toxic is because of
disturbance to the serum sodium levels. Water does
the exact same thing in excess.
In of itself Salt is no more or less toxic than
water. They just disturb this delicate balance one
way or another.
In the case of Hyponatremia when sodium serum falls,
then the use of sodium-chloride is used to return
balance. In the case of Hypernatremia, the use of
water is used to dilute to the serium sodium level.
That is why when an over salty meal is consumed,
thirst ensues. People only die drinking sea water is
because they also need plain water to bring the
serum sodium level back down.
If you are going to claim salt is toxic regardless
of dose, then you must also apply similar logic to
Salt is a combination of two minerals, it is inherit
to sustaining life since we need it in a balance. To
maintain serum sodium levels we have to replinish
the supply. A diet high in water based foods,
requires an additional corresponding level of sodium
for the body to sustain this delicate balance.
In the case of illness or any reason that this
delicate balance is altered, then the use of salt is
simply a remedy, just as water can be a remedy.
Therapeutic dosage of sodium-chloride is in mg form
and are certainly nowhere near the dosages required
for either toxicity or death.
I have already pointed out an overdose of any
mineral and even water can be fatal. I'm sure in
even less ounces of weight even Zinc, Iron,
Selenium, Manganese, Magnesium are also fatal if
consumed. Yet these minerals are still essential to
health. This does not make Zinc toxic in
therapeutic/health supporting doses. This does not
make Magnesium toxic in therapeutic/health
You seem confused about what I have asked of you, so
here are three questions. I respect your education
Dr Graham and I am attempting to have a civil and
scientific based discussion with you. I will walk
away if I receive a flippant response, but it will
show you in that light. Alternatively, you may
choose to respond to my question intelligently in
appropriate fashion to that you have attempted in
trying to write a scientifically credible diet book.
In attempting to do so you must warrant and allow
scientific questioning of your claims. I have not
sensed from you an openness to do so in your short
responses as of yet, and this is disappointing.
So here are my questions to make it more easier for
1. Can you acknowledge that sodium-chloride is
beneficial to the human organism in therapeutic dose
because it can re-balance normal serum sodium
2. I have requested any scientific sources that
backup your claim that "Extracted sodium chloride,
in any form is an irritant and is toxic to the
body." From your responses this appears to be a
personal opinion, not based in any real scientific
reality. All science on salt toxicity implies
excessive dosage. I have yet to find a report that
agrees that salt is toxic regardless of dose.
Should you not answer this question once more then I
will take it as tacit agreement from you that your
comments were not based in any real scientific
reality, and thus are opinion only. Then we all know
where you stand.
3. You commented: "You continue to use IV drip as an
example, but most people on drips are not also
eating food, the drip has replaced their food."
The reason I have used this as an example because it
is the most extreme example of when "extracted
sodium chloride" is used in emergency situations to
help sick people get well. If the extracted form (of
any dose) was an irritant and toxic as you mentioned
in your book, then it should make sick people worse.
It appears you are accepting this is not the case,
but skirting the issue on directly saying so. I
think this is careless and possibly lacking in
ethics holding onto some outdated natural hygiene
idealistic standpoint as another person highlighted.
Ultimately, science does not stand by your claims.
So it is up to you as a Doctor with an attempt at a
scientific credible book to show the alternative
science when going directly against mainstream
belief. A flippant response to valid questions
shows that there is no credibility to your claim.
That is all. No personal attack intended. I have
been open trying to explore your claim with honesty
and integrity, that is why I have asked for evidence
from you in a civil fashion.
In openness and fairness
Reply To This Post Return to Posts Index VegSource Home