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From: Tom ZeCat (
Subject:         You didn't contradict anything I said
Date: September 14, 2007 at 1:32 pm PST

In Reply to: hey dope posted by Bart on September 14, 2007 at 11:11 am:

All you did was go into more detail about the support of the Shah, something which I already condemned. Of course the support of the Shah was so that we could easily buy oil from Iran -- that and so that we could have influence in (read: meddle in) the region. That's a "Well, duh." I already said that was both immoral and a mistake. However, it didn't justify the taking of innocent hostages who were not the policy makers that caused the support of the Shah.

All I'm saying is there's plenty of blame to go around. We've wronged Iran, but they've certainly wronged us. The result is they are now our enemy. You're not going to claim they're really our friends, are you? And 1979 is a reasonable year for the beginning of their enmity. It's when an extremely hostile to the US government took over Iran. Of course the situation had been building up over many years before then. It didn't happen suddenly and for no reason.

It would be nice if you would admit that Iran is jointly responsible the poor relations. It's kind of like when a marriage breaks up. It's almost never all the husband's or all the wife's fault. They're usually jointly responsible for their problems.

The Iranians didn't have to take innocent people hostage. As I said before, they had every right to make us close our embassy and kick us out of the country. That would have been a justifiable response. No matter how bad the Shah was or how poor our judgement was in supporting him, it was cruel and immoral for Iran to take our people hostage. There's nothing that can justify that.

On the other hand, I think we have more common ground than you're letting on. I think we both agree that we completely botched our foreign policy toward Iran for years and we would have much better relations with that country if we had never supported the Shah.

I don't think there will be a Shah of Iraq. Bush's talk of a slow withdrawal while we establish a stable government smacks a lot like Nixon's Vietnamization policy. I think when we finally get out of there after wasting countless lives, pro-Iranian radicals will overthrow the Iraqi government, essentially creating a much larger and more powerful Iran. We'll have a bigger and stronger enemy that hates us just as much as it has for years. Thanks a lot, Bush. The invasion of Iraq was an even bigger mistake than the support of the Shah. Do we agree on that?

We seem to agree on a lot of stuff. I don't know why we're arguing.

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