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From: Millie (
Subject:         It is quiet ---so far ---
Date: January 3, 2007 at 5:53 pm PST

In Reply to: Re: One more note to Razz.... posted by Razz on January 2, 2007 at 9:10 pm:

I enjoy discussions such as this and have grown very tired of the lack of debate/discussion that we now have in this country. An immediate question or observation simply draws attacks and condescending namecalling without one bit of useful input on the subject. I remember when we shifted gears from Afghanistan to Iraq, the simple question "why?" nearly got a person thrown into a camp for the unpatriotic!

I have to leave home shortly but will attempt to address some of your post and will return later if I don't finish. Thanks in advance for the opportunity to have a civil conversation - and if we're interrupted and forced to draw swords, I'll remember that it wasn't because of you! LOL

Since I have little time, it is easier for me to copy and paste what you've said and answer it in blue - that way maybe I won't miss something.

Here we go......

Wow, it sure is quiet over here, huh? And we can have a civil conversation!!! Yea! This subject, imo, is such a huge issue for our country and yet we have little opportunity to actually discuss it in a rational and civil manner.

Well, I agree with nearly everything that you said. But I do believe that the term "legislate morality" has really been misused. Think of any of the laws in our country, and you will see that they are moral laws. Don't steal, don't murder, don't lie, cheat, yadda yadda. So, the fact is, we do legislate morality. You're right. I'll elaborate a bit -- when I say "legislate morality" I'm speaking of issues that normally wouldn't have an affect on other citizens. For instance, many immoral things are not actionable in a court situation. There are many things that I think people shouldn't do *but* am I willing to spend my tax dollars to make sure there are enough resources to police whatever the issue is? I think people should not gossip but would it be plausible to expect our police dept to arrest everyone who gossips? Our resources are stretched so thin that our police cannot keep up with murderers, rapists, and drug deals so I don't think it would be in our best interest to now say they had to catch those who gossip too. Also, we'd just have to build a fence around the whole country and call it a day! LOL Another issue that riles me at times is the seat belt law. YES, we should wear them - and YES, kids should be buckled and secured. And YES if insurance companies want to say "we won't cover your accident if you don't wear your seat belts" that would be fine. But do I want a policeman to stand in the middle of the street making sure that belts are fastened (which sometimes happens) when he can't be sure that the car isn't stolen? And, I'll admit that sometimes this law comes in handy when the police want to pull over a vehicle they suspect is in violation of -maybe- transporting drugs but they don't have reasonable cause -other than the no seatbelt law- to pull them over. But, as a 46-year-old who does her best to follow the law and isn't carrying meth or dead bodies in the trunk, should the police spend their time/money/effort making sure I'm belted? Long Long explanation - sorry. I've come back to this long long paragraph to add one more thing: adultery - we all know it's wrong and we can surely obtain a divorce over it BUT is it something that we want to legislate and have our justice system preside over?

And as far as the politics of abortion, I agree that both "sides" have used the issue for their own agenda. But I do think that there are many (me included) who realize that any society that condones the death of babies, is going downhill fast. I can understand those who do not believe in God, and believe that we are just here by chance. I do understand that. But to say, I believe in God, and follow Him... and yet condone the murder of unborn babies, that's pretty hard. I know that the language that I just used is strong, but I have a lot of experience in every area of this issue, and it's not about terminating a pregnancy. The bottom line is that a human being, that cannot speak for themselves, has been killed. Any kinds of buzzwords, choice, privacy, family planning, it's not going to cover the issue. I do believe in God - and the place I'll be leaving to go to soon (in about 10 minutes) is church. My issue -politically- is "What should our Government control?" In the Bible, sins are equal - therefore the gossiper I mentioned above IS as liable for his/her action as a rapist. In man's law, we have had to make our laws equitible as to how they hurt others. If you want to sit at home and drink your life away, go ahead. Even though you shouldn't and it would be a sin, society says "go ahead" because you are only hurting yourself. Once you leave home, however, it is our business because you might hurt others. So, MAN's law *is* different than God's. It has to be. We have numbered laws as to what is worse and what is lesser. Sins are not numbered. Sin is sin. Many are against gay lifestyles - should we legislate it as breaking the law and have our policemen entering homes and checking out our bedrooms? I don't think so.

I have spoken to many who see certain situations in which they might rethink abortion (incest, rape, etc.) therefore who gets to decide? If there is ever a situation that you'd say 'ok' to (reluctantly, of course), then should there be a panel or committee who decides who can and who can't? If so, who get to (or has to) sit on that panel? That's why ---as far as our Government is concerned--- I am content to say that it is between a woman and her God. He knows her heart and He knows her situation and He is the final judge. In fact, perhaps this hypothetical lady will get into Heaven but I won't because I lusted after her car, ya know? It's a huge issue and it's a personal one. (forget about me leaving - I've already gone and come back now - where was I?)

I have counseled with many women, who have been through this. It was hard enough to be in a difficult situation with an unplanned pregnancy, but then to be told it's just a "product of conception" and gone through with an abortion in the heat of the crisis, to find out later that they could never reverse that discision, is so very sad. It is sad. Anytime we later see that we could have done differently, hopefully we do learn from it. I hear people say they would NEVER do 'this' or 'that' and I just cringe - because usually we'll face what we'd NEVER do and many times over we do either that very thing or worse. I think it teaches us sympathy, empathy, compassion, and after a while I hope it teaches us not to judge others too quickly.

But like you say, both sides have used it, twisted it, for their own agenda, and that is so disgusting. When the subject is politicized, we lose the human stories - what people may be facing that we may never have dreamed could or would ever happen. Also, why should a politician be so involved in such a personal matter? When I said earlier that I believe that just as many Reps have abortions as do Dems - that's the kind of thing that bothers me the most. I think the very inactivity of promises made over the last six years proves that the issue was only used to get votes (same for the gay marriage issue). Part of me (the part that is the President of Conspiracy Theories) wonders if the Right isn't happy about their Nov losses because the groups they had made these promises to were beginning to make demands that they follow through on those promises.

I never meant for this post to be so long! I guess that my bottom line is that whether I believe something is right or wrong doesn't make me necessarily want our government to act on the matter.

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