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How to Win An Argument With a Meat-Eater

Diet for a New America | John Robbins | 09/21/09

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"Outsmart him. Outrun him. Outlive him." -- Dave Scott


The Hunger Argument

Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of edible flesh from feedlot beef: 16


The Environmental Argument

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds
Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year


The Cancer Argument

Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than once a week: 3.8 times
For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2.8 times
For women who eat butter and cheese 2-4 times a week: 3.25 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.


The Cholesterol Argument

Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours
Most common cause of death in the U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in the U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10 percent: 9 percent
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is 210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent


The Natural Resources Argument

User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock production
Amount of water used in production of the average cow: sufficient to float a destroyer
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of California beef: 5,000
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Calories of fossil fuel expended to get 1 calorie of protein from beef: 78
To get 1 calorie of protein from soybeans: 2
Percentage of all raw materials (base products of farming, forestry and mining, including fossil fuels) consumed by U.S. that is devoted to the production of livestock: 33
Percentage of all raw materials consumed by the U.S. needed to produce a complete vegetarian diet: 2


The Antibiotic Argument

Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support


The Pesticide Argument

Common belief: U.S. Department of Agriculture protects our health through meat inspection
Reality: fewer than 1 out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher
Amount of Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant: 9 times the permissible level


The Ethical Argument

Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker


The Survival Argument

Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choice of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)

 

Source = "Diet For A New America" by John Robbins



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40 Comments

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The fact source is fairly old now. This information would be great with more timely information. IE
It is now thought that 70% of all antibiotics are used on farm animals ( not 55%)The green house effect is more sensitive to methane which is produced in greater quantities by farm animals than all forms of transportation

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In your "Environmental" category, you missed one: The continued survival of the American Mustang. The wild horses are being systematically removed from our wilderness areas because they are "overgrazing" the areas where as many as 3 million cattle graze. (There are less than 25,000 horses left in the wild--WHO'S overgrazing???)

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Where is the religious (Christian) argument?

Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (Genesis 9:3-4)

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:5-6)

Jesus ate fish Luke 24:42-43 .. && Fed multitudes of people with fish & bread (Matthew 14:17-21)

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In response to the points made negative to the above arguments.

The hunger argument is reasonable. It is not proven that we will transfer resources to the starving but if we have limited resources than the starving are not going to see food.

The environmental argument. Producing plants does not cause the environmental problems of animals. Read Plan B.

The Cancer Argument. It is documented in hundreds of respected medical journals the connection between nutrition (diet) and cancer in anywhere between 35-65% of cancers depending on your source. Keep the blinders on your eyes.

The cholesterol argument. While I believe there are other issues than cholesterol, ie. inflammation, homocysteine, and omega 3 related to heart disease cholesterol is an issue. Continue with moderation. The Framingham study, the largest heart study ongoing, documents that a cholesterol under 150 mg% is protective.

The natural resouce argument. "irrelevant, presposterous, to very questionable". I hope you are living on the land with water from the underground. Do you realize that the Ganges River, the Yellow River and others that are fed by glaciers on in trouble as are the millions of people that depend on them. Closer to home look at the levels of the Ogallala (sp?) aquiphor and wonder what the future holds. We use tremendous amounts of water raising beef. One day it will be a question of whether I can have my pound of meat or a drink of water.

As to your concluding comment about using statistic being subjective, I disagree. It is possible to bend statistics many ways (see the pharmaceutical industry) but a good study with statistics is less subjective than not. The outdated point is valid. (One of a few valid points you make)

By the way KFC is having a double down promotion you might like. Eat your meat.

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*Hunger? Several points.
- Why do you think 80% of the world population lives with less then 10$/day? What has meat to do with this? Ever wondered why the goods you buy are so cheap? Imagine those countries would have the same economic power and wages as our rich countries. How much do you think your goods would really cost. This is simply the basic of the world economy, before there where slaves now cheap labor in poor counties. Nothing to do with meat as vegans also profit from this system
-Animals in the industrial chain eat mostly food only food grown for them like grain Triticale, Barley, Oats. They also eat the leftovers from farms,breweries and the ever growing biofuel industry.
*Environment
-More the 50% of the meat and 90% of the milk in the worls is produced on “crop-livestock farming”. Animals are fed on pastures and with farm residues. There manure is used on fields to feed animals and humans. A total natural system. Not every thing is industrial even in the US around 20% of the meatbeef is fed on this system.
-You think that planting billions of the same plant on a small space is natural? To be able to do that you need to clear natural habitats, use machines, fertilisators, pesticides. Pastures are natural and a lot of other liveforms profit from these. Fields are an ecological desert as only mice,rats and some other small animals can find food or shelter in them.
-Strangly there is never talked about the ever growing biofuel industry and there impact on forest. In Indonsia about 5 million hectares of primitif forest have been cleared to plant palmtrees for the industry. A country like Brazil has switched totaly to biofuel, have you ever looked upon the amount of plants you need to sustain this?
-You think that your exotic food doesn’t travel much to get to your plate? Why not find out from where they come and how much they travel.
*Cancer
-There are 10 medical reasons why you can develop colecteral cancer and only one is related to the massive eating of red meat, not to fish or white meat.All the others are either related to sex,age,family or bad livestyles like alcohol,smoking and obesity. Why do you people always choose one in the ten? Is this called science?
-Relating all the other cancers to meat is pseudo-science and is simply based on nothing.
*Cholesterol
-There are 13 medical reasons why you can get a heart disease. Not one is directly related to eating small amounts of meat. Most of the causes come from bad livestyles and no, obesity isn’t a diseaese.
-Inuits who lived on a 90%/99% meat-fish diet for thousands of years had no heart diseases and almost no cancers. Plenty of data to prove this.
*Resources
-Do you have any idea how much water is needed to irrigate any field? I don’t think so, you would be shocked.
-Ah yes the 7Kg grain/1 Kg meat theory. Animals don’t eat Soy but Soymeal. That is a by-product of making Soyoil and is almost not used to feed humans. Animals also need Silage to be able to eat those products like grain otherwise they die. And what is Silage? For the rest you can you back to the environment chapter
-You can also ask yourselve for people who promote “nature” how they are going to feed billions of humans? Do they ever talk about the fact that 75% of all the fertilisators used in the world are chemicals? The making of these use yearly around 5% of all the gas used in the world. They also use non-renewable resources like Phosphorus and Pottasium. Do those people have an idea what they are talking about? What is the only natural fertilisator found in large amounts close to where you need them? Animal manure is the answer
*Antibiotics
-Well like they said themselves in large part of the world they are banned.
*Pesticides
-I talked about it in the environment chapter how they are used on fields to feed not only omnivores but also vegans.
*Ethical
-Billions of small animals are killed when fields are harvested.
-Billions of rats and mice are trapped or poissened every year to keep us disease free and to stop them to eat or food.
-Why is it morally more acceptable to kill a plant then an animal?Because you think it doesn’t feel pain?Is it moral to create a concept of “good” or “bad” killing?When did killing become moral?Omnivores and vegans need to kill to live so you have no moral point on this issue.
*Survival
-Science has proven humans are eating meat for around 2,5/2 million years ago.
-Veganism is a 20th century movement.There has never been any healthy vegan population in the world before.In ancient times humans got there vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, Iodine from meat or fish. Even in India where you find Jainism wich is the most respectfull religion on animals and plants (not humans) there where lacto-vegetarians eating cheese and drinking milk.
-Inuits have lived for centuries on a 90%/99% meat-fish diet and didn't have heart diseases and almost no cancers. Again data proves this.

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Very good COMMENTS :) And a Surprising number of Positive Hits (even though still in the NEGATIVE numbers)....considering you are up against VEGANS on THEIR webpage...that is commendable.

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I can't believe you ask what the difference is between killing animals and killing plants.

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Using single issue arguments and defense is a doomed proposition. IE. the inuits have massive osteoporosis. Most can not stand straight by the age of 40. They get plenty of calcium but the metabolism of the excessive protein depletes the body of calcium.
Mankind may have eaten meat for millions of years but in what proportion to vegetation? The healthiest societies ( blue zones ) do eat meat but in very small amounts. Once per year to once per week.

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The Inuits problems with osteoporosis are a modern problem and are related to polution from PCBs and their metabolites, chlorinated
pesticides, halogenated phenolic compounds, PBDEs and PFOSHŸö. From smoking and from the 1970 when they changed there food habits from game and fish to fast-food. That is also the time they started to get cancers and heart diseases all unknown when they followed there tradionnal diet.
If you have problems with the Inuits we can talk about the people living in the Caucasus. It is well scientificaly documented how those people lived quite longer then any other humans in the world. Where those people vegetarian or even vegan? No they are omnivores and eat a lot of meat and cheese and yogurt. In our own society more and more omnivores are living to 80/90/100 years old. If meat is so dangerous how does this happen then?

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The article does not mention osteoporosis. This is a historical problem reflected in history reports of early contact. This is also true regarding the Masai tribe of Africa. The men subsist mostly on Blood, Milk and meat. The Women eat a varied diet low in those things. The men are crippled as they leave their 30s, the women remain vital. The National Geographic funded a study including the Caucasus. Their use of fermented dairy products was grossly inflated by dairy companies. The amount of meat they eat is sparse, mostly for Celebration.

http://www.natural-connection.com/resource/macro_today/osteoporosis.html

Richard B Mazess and Warren Mather, "Bone mineral content of North Alaskan Eskimos" American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, September 1974 2:916-925

http://books.google.com/books?id=8vrz6l1t6T0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+blue+zones&hl=en&ei=tcHNS8HROI_WsgOc1qWvDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

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This is the scientific article and you will notice that they are not so certain then you are about the eventual causes.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/27/9/916

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If you are into osteoporosis you can also talk about the 30% more fractures of vegans according to the EPIC-oxford study. And vegans don't live the live the Inuits have lived for centuries in extreme conditions.
http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/bones

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Let's see about your claim about Caucausian cuisine.
http://www.aboutgeorgia.ge/cuisine/

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"Thanks to the Dannon yogurt ads, people in the United States and elsewhere often believe that it is the consumption of yogurt which is responsible for the unusually long lives of the Abkhasians and others in the Caucasus. Actually, though, the Abkhasians do not eat yogurt.
Abkhasians eat relatively little meat, and when they do, the meat is always from animals who have been healthy and who have been freshly slaughtered. Even then, the fat from the meat or poultry is removed:"

excerpts from "health at 100"

It is the Abkhasia region where the longevity is not all of Georgia.

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The ethnic cuisine of Abkhazia is not abundant but very tasty and various. Historically the cuisine development was affected by that fact that the Abkhazian tribes were occupied both by agriculture and cattle breeding. Therefore, they cooked vegetables and meat.
Meat is cooked in the traditional way on a skewer over the heated coals. In this was the delicacies are cooked – roasted goatlings and lambs stuffed with finely chopped interiors, cheese, adzhika and mint; as well as chicken seasoned with adzhika or nut sauce.
The majority of vegetable dishes are made from string beans, corn, cabbage, tomatoes, and pepper. Vegetable and meat dishes are usually served with fresh and pickled vegetables. Any dish - vegetable or meat – is flavored with spices and hot sauces (made from cherry plums, barberries, blackberries, pomegranates, green grapes, tomatoes). The set of spices including coriander, savory, basil, mint, fennel, and parsley – gives Abkhazian dishes their specific aroma and makes food delicious. Adzhika is a must there; it is served practically with everything. This thick fragrant seasoning is made of red pepper, spices, garlic and salt.
Abkhazian bread is called abysta – a thick corn mash. Besides, they eat corn flat cakes, small loafs of churek sweetened with honey or filled with cheese or walnuts. Those are baked on heated coals.
Dairy products play a special part in Abkhazian cuisine. So do cheeses of different kinds.
Abkhazians are also well-known for gardening, wine growing and beekeeping. Therefore vegetables, fruit, grapes, walnuts, and honey are invariably present on a typical Abkhazian table. Walnuts are used in many dishes. Honey is widely used too. It is great with churek, curd or fruit dumplings, pies etc.


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Another about Azerbaijan where people live old. Omnivores and plenty of meat.

http://azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/83_folder/83_articles/83_longevity.html

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"Indeed, many Azerbaijanis are fond of lamb, mutton and sheep fat, but in rural areas where most of these long-lived people reside, meat is eaten no more often than once or twice a week."

How do you define this as plenty of meat?

Excerpt from the link above.

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-Historically, Azerbaijanis eat fairly large amounts of animal fat, which is considered by modern scientists to be the "No. 1 Killer." Why then has this slayer not visited upon the centenarians from villages of the Lerik district in Azerbaijan, where quite a number of residents live beyond 120 years old?

I think most people agree that eating 3x meat a day is a good choice but the fact is that eating a reasnoble amount of meat and fish a week isn't more deadly then following a bad vegan diet. Vegan need to take synthetic versions of vitamin we omnivores find naturally in our food. Vegans also have problems with calcium levels and European vegans with Iodine levels. Personnaly I eat sometimes omnivore, vegetarian or even vegan, no fast-food and a very small amount of industrialy prepared food. That diet isn't bad for you even if vegans do everything to make meat look bad for your health.

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Both meat and dairy are contaminated with high levels of dangerous chemicals. THATS ALL I NEED TO KNOW.

BTW. Has anyone else noticed that all forums these days seem to have a large membership of people whome you would not expect to find in such a place eg: meat eaters ranting on about how good meat is. It's the same on anti vaccine sites and on organic sites.
What a nice way to earn a living, gissa job.

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I have alredy proven that around 60% of the meat and 90% of the milk is not part of any industrial chain. So your comment doesn't apply.

http://www.ifad.org/lrkm/factsheet/IntegratedCrop.pdf

Strangly because I am well informed about certain things I would be a bogey man, doesn't that say a lot on how you look on science and reliable data.
You think there are no pesticides on fields to feed humans? No GM crops? You think it's natural to grow every year on the same place billions of the same plant? To be able to do that you need fertilisators, pesticides and machines every year. You think that feeding billions of people is easy when you think already 52% are living in cities and can't feed themselves and that in 2030 they will be 60%. And save me the organic argument, please.
Being not informed about an issue isn't an excuse to say anything you like and expect others to gobble it without any problem. Ivan.

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I found this in your earlier post:

-More the 50% of the meat and 90% of the milk in the worls is produced on “crop-livestock farming”. Animals are fed on pastures and with farm residues. There manure is used on fields to feed animals and humans. A total natural system. Not every thing is industrial even in the US around 20% of the meatbeef is fed on this system.-

How is that proof? The link you supplied does not support the numbers you state.

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It is written, if you take the time to read it totally.

3 Mixed farming systems utilize about half of all the land used for livestock production systems, or roughly
2.5 billion hectares worldwide, of which 1.1 billion hectares are arable rainfed cropland, 0.2 billion hectares irrigated
cropland and 1.2 billion hectares grassland. Mixed farming systems make the largest contribution to world livestock
products with just over 50 per cent of the meat and 90 per cent of the milk currently consumed being produced in
such systems (Council for Agricultural Science and Technology, 1999, quoted in Van Keulen and Schiere, 2004).

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If you go directly to the reference article:

http://www.cropscience.org.au/icsc2004/symposia/2/1/211_vankeulenh.htm

You will see the data is quite old, some from the 1970's

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That is how science and statistics work, they use older reports and construct on them. There is data to 2004 in the references. It is not the kind of study done every year worlwide.

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I imagine your point was that factory farming was not as present as commonly thought. I was surprised myself. However, I would suggest that factory farming has grown exponentially in recent years.

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Yes,this is the point I am making and the fact most vegans are not aware of this. The conclusion you suggest is not backuped by any data so I leave this to your discretion. I only base my arguments on data and science.
Another point on agriculture is the factor of fertilisators. 75% of the fertilisators used in the world are chemicals. The making of them costs every year around 5% of all the gas used in the world. They are also made with non-renewable resources like Potassium and Phosphorus. This will be a challenge in the future for the world agriculture.
What would be the only natural fertilisator you can find in large ammounts and close to where you need it? I am talking about animal manure.
The problem of a lot of vegan sites is the fact they critisize a system but do they ever bring a real solution? I have never seen any vegan bring this kind of solutions and how to feed 6,5 billion humans based on a total vegan system.
I am interested to find such information.

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I have never heard about this topic and relating violence in the world to meat consumption seems pretty strange. Thinking meat is the devil who runs violence in the world doesn't seem very scientific. Or am I wrong?
I can relate to the fact we use a lot of foods coming from the other side of the world and that isn't very ecological.
Humans have started to eat meat at least 2,5/2 million years ago and we know this thru anthropologist findings. If you look at people in India who practice "Jainism" and who are very respectfull of animals and plants but they are strangly not very respectfull of fellow humans. They practice "Ahimsa" wich is for self-defense, capital punishment and even war.
They are of course lacto-vegetarians as humans cannot live without the vitamin B12 they find in milk and cheese.
Humans have got for millions of years there B12, in some regions the D vitamin, Iodine and calcium from meat-products and fish. The vegan movement is a 20th century movement created by "the vegan society" around 1944.
So I would be open to scientific articles concerning your topic.

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Here are exerpts from studies re the effects of meat on human digestion. Bottom line meat is toxic to humans. Try eating nothing but meat for a week and see how you feel. Then try eating nothing but fresh fruits and veggies for a week and see how you feel. Therin lies the answer.

J Nutr 1975 Jul;105(7):878-84
Effects of high risk and low risk diets for colon carcinogenesis on fecal microflora and steroids in man.
Reddy BS, Weisburger JH, Wynder EL.
We investigated the effects of a high meat mixed Western diet and a nonmeat diet, representing the dietary pattern of high and low risk areas for colon cancer, respectively, on fecal microflora dn on bile acid and neutral sterol patterns in man. The total anaerobic microflora as well as the count of Bacteroides, Bifidobacterium, Peptococcus, and anaerobic Lactobacillus were significantly higher during the period of consumption of a high meat mixed Western diet comparted with the nonmeat-diet consumption period. The difference in total fecal bile acid excretion was not significant between the two dietary periods. Fecal excretion of microbially modified bile acids and neutral sterols was decreased when subjects eating a high meat diet transferred to a nonmeat diet. These results support the fact that diet plays a modifying role on the composition of intestinal microflora, bile acids, and neutral sterols.

Acta Physiol Hung 1999;86(3-4):171-80
Vegan diet in physiological health promotion.
Hanninen O, Rauma AL, Kaartinen K, Nenonen M. Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
We have performed a number of studies including dietary interventions and cross-sectional studies on subjects consuming uncooked vegan food called living food (LF) and clarified the changes in several parameters related to health risk factors. LF consists of germinated seeds, cereals, sprouts, vegetables, fruits, berries and nuts. Some items are fermented and contain a lot of lactobacilli. The diet is rich in fiber. It has very little sodium, and it contains no cholesterol. Food items like berries and wheat grass juice are rich in antioxidants such as carotenoids and flavonoids. The subjects eating living food show increased levels of carotenoids and vitamins C and E and lowered cholesterol concentration in their sera. Urinary excretion of sodium is only a fraction of the omnivorous controls. Also urinary output of phenol and p-cresol is lowered as are several fecal enzyme levels which are considered harmful. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet reported amelioration of their pain, swelling of joints and morning stiffness which all got worse after finishing LF diet. The composite indices of objective measures showed also improvement of the rheumatoid arthritis patients during the intervention. The fibromyalgic subjects eating LF lost weight compared to their omnivorous controls. The results on their joint stiffness and pain (visual analogue scale), on their quality of sleep, on health assessment questionnaire and on general health questionnaire all improved. It appears that the adoption of vegan diet exemplified by the living food leads to a lessening of several health risk factors to cardiovascular diseases and cancer. Rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet which was also seen in serum parameters and fecal analyses.

F Kassie, EF Lhoste, A Bruneau, M Zsivkovits, F Ferk, M Uhl, T Zidek, and S Knasmuller
Effect of intestinal microfloras from vegetarians and meat eaters on the genotoxicity of 2-amino-3-methylimidazo[4,5-f]quinoline, a carcinogenic heterocyclic amine.
J Chromatogr B Analyt Technol Biomed Life Sci, March 25, 2004; 802(1): 211-5.
Institute of Cancer Research, University of Vienna, Borschkegasse 8A A-1090 Vienna, Austria.
Aim of this study was to investigate the impact of intestinal microfloras from vegetarians and non-vegetarians on the DNA-damaging activity of 2-amino-3-methyl-3H-imidazo[4,5-f]quinoline (IQ), a carcinogenic heterocyclic amine that is found in fried meats. Floras from four vegetarians (Seventh Day Adventists [who tend not to be vegan - ljf]) and from four individuals who consumed high amounts of meats were collected and inoculated into germfree F344 rats. The rats were kept on isocaloric diets that either contained animal derived protein and fat (meat consumers group) or proteins and fat of plant origin (vegetarian groups). IQ (90 mg/kg bw) was administered orally, after 4 h the extent of DNA-damage in colon and liver cells was determined in single cell gel electrophoresis assays. In all groups, the IQ induced DNA-migration was in the liver substantially higher than in the colon. In animals harbouring floras of vegetarians, the extent of damage was in both organs significantly (69.2% in the liver, P


Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Dec;72(6):1488-94
Contribution of dietary protein to sulfide production in the large intestine: an in vitro and a controlled feeding study in humans.
Magee EA, Richardson CJ, Hughes R, Cummings JH. Dunn Clinical Nutrition Centre, Hills Road, Cambridge, United Kingdom. e.magee@dundee.ac.uk
BACKGROUND: Hydrogen sulfide is a luminally acting, bacterially derived cell poison that has been implicated in ulcerative colitis. Sulfide generation in the colon is probably driven by dietary components such as sulfur-containing amino acids (SAAs) and inorganic sulfur (eg, sulfite).
OBJECTIVE: We assessed the contribution of SAAs from meat to sulfide production by intestinal bacteria with use of both a model culture system in vitro and an in vivo human feeding study.
DESIGN: Five healthy men were housed in a metabolic suite and fed a sequence of 5 diets for 10 d each. Meat intake ranged from 0 g/d with a vegetarian diet to 600 g/d with a high-meat diet. Fecal sulfide and urinary sulfate were measured in samples collected on days 9 and 10 of each diet period. Additionally, 5 or 10 g bovine serum albumin or casein/L was added to batch cultures inoculated with feces from 4 healthy volunteers. Concentrations of sulfide, ammonia, and Lowry-reactive substances were measured over 48 h.
RESULTS: Mean (+/-SEM) fecal sulfide concentrations ranged from 0.22 +/- 0.02 mmol/kg with the 0-g/d diet to 3.38 +/- 0.31 mmol/kg with the 600-g/d diet and were significantly related to meat intake (P: CONCLUSION: Dietary protein from meat is an important substrate for sulfide generation by bacteria in the human large intestine.

Possible associations of dietary residues with growth of the large gut. Am. J. Physiol. 197, 903-911).... Discussion: Fiber in the diet seemed to have a growth enhancing effect on the small intestine.

The decreased fecal volume 80-120 grams/day of Western Man and prolonged intestinal transit time of over 72 hours compared to the 300-500 grams/day fecal volume and under 40 hours transit time of the Third World countries, is obviously diet/fiber related. The increased intestinal retention of the waste products of putrefaction, from meats and animal fats, with prolonged exposure of the intestinal mucosa to their toxins and carcinogens is responsible for the emergence and prevalence of many disease states.
Burkitt, D.P. et al. Dietary Fiber and disease. Journal of the American Medical Association. 229:1068, 1974

Red and white meat increased colonocyte DNA single-strand breaks (SS and double-strand breaks (DSdose dependently. Resistant starch (RS), a dietary fibre component, prevented this damage. Apoptotic cells were increased dose dependently by red meat irrespective of RS. Red meat induced greater colonic mucus layer thinning than white meat. Dietary RS protects against this damage and against loss of the mucus barrier through increased butyrate production. Carcinogenesis. 2007 Nov;28(11):2355-62.

Cancer Biol Ther. 2006 Mar;5(3):267-74.
High dietary protein result in increased colonic DNA damage by thinning of colonic mucus layer. Dietary casein caused a 2-fold increase in colonic DNA damage and reduced thickness of colonic mucus layer by 41%. Cooked meat caused 26% greater DNA damage than casein. Cecal and fecal short chain fatty acid pools were increased by inclusion of resistant starch, RS. DNA damage due to high protein could increase colorectal cancer but RS could reduce the risk.


Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Feb;62(1):31-6.
Colonic diverticula.
Diverticula are a herniation through the wall of the sigmoid colon and are likely to be a consequence of a weakness in the colonic wall or prolonged exposure to increased intracolonic pressure consequent on a low dietary fibre intake. Adult Africans living in Africa eat a high-fibre diet and are free from diverticulosis. Their colons are stronger, wider and thinner than those Scottish adults of the same age.

Undigested protein is fermented by the colonic microflora with the resultant end-products of SCFAs, branched-chain fatty acids (e.g.,isovalerate, isobutyrate, and 2-methylbutyrate), and potentially harmful metabolites –ammonia, amines,phenols, sulfide, and indoles. Altern Med Rev 2004;9(2):180-197
"animals harbouring floras of vegetarians, the extent of damage was in both organs significantly lower than in the meat consumer"J Chromatogr B Analyt Technol Biomed Life Sci, 2004; 802(1): 211-5.

Dietary factors protecting women from urinary tract infection.
Because urinary tract infections (UTIs) are caused by bacteria in the stool, dietary factors may affect the risk of contracting a UTI by altering the properties of the fecal bacterial flora.
Frequent consumption of fresh juices, especially berry juices.. was associated with a decreased risk of recurrence of UTI: the OR for UTI was 0.66 (95% CI: 0.48, 0.92) per 2 dL juice.


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Cooking food destroys vitamins.
The more you cook the meat the more the vitamins and proteins become unusable, since they get destroyed.
So it is better to get your vitamins from the source.
I actually get my vitamin D for example, from the sun. I know that sounds crazy but a little exercise and 30 minutes of sun everyday does the body good.

Iodine is added to table salt. That is strange, since it is found in meat, and in NA we live in a meat eating society. Ooops , again overly processed foods makes the nutrients unusable.

Do vegetables have iodine in them???
The must because where does that cow get iodine from in the first place???
Where does the cow get calcium????

They get it from vegetation.
Let's look at some fruits:
Amazing we get low fat, high carbs, complete amino-acids, and the only thing missing is b12 (which is a bacteria and can be supplemented) and vitamin D which we get from sunshine.

Pineapple: Iodine and Powerful Anti-inflammatory


All of the fruits in this list have additional benefits for people with Hashimoto's. Pineapple contains the entire range of vitamins, 16 minerals, and is extremely rich in bromelain, an anti-inflammatory enzyme that is so powerful that it is commonly used alone as a treatment for autoimmune disorders; it also breaks down proteins (including parasites), acts as an anti-coagulant (lowering blood-pressure) and purifies the blood.

Coconut: iodine and Instant, Non-sugar Energy

Coconut provides a unique form of saturated fat that contains medium-chain fatty acids that boost the metabolism quickly. This kind of fat doesn't need to be linked up with carrier proteins (lipoprotins) and stored – it travels straight to the liver for immediate conversion to energy. Coconut also contains caprylic acid (also known as octanoic acid) which combats fungal infections such as candidiasis.
Strawberries: Iodine and Anti-histamine

Strawberries are the top berry source for quercetin, which is anti-inflammatory and has been found to protect brain cells from damage (1). It is also known as "nature's antihistamine", inhibiting the production of histamine, which is involved in inflammatory responses, as well as allergic ones. And just one cup of strawberries contains over 140 per cent of the RDA (recommended daily amount).

Rhubarb: Iodine and 12 Other Minerals

Rhubarb is part of the Polygonaceae family and has been used as a medicine since the third century BCE. It is rich in iodine and also contains vitamins A, C and many of the B vitamins. It is remarkable for its high mineral content which – in addition to iodine – includes calcium, magnesium, manganese, copper, iron, phosphorous, silicon, sodium, sulfur and zinc, chlorine, and potassium. The rhizomes and roots contain powerful anthraquinones, which are stimulant laxatives, useful for relieving the constipation that's an unpleasant part of hypothryoid conditions.

Apricots: Iodine and Phytonutrients

Apricots are high in the phytonutrients lycopene, beta-carotene and quercetin, and have been shown to reduce the risk of liver steatosis (fatty degeneration of the liver) (2). They are also one of the foods identified by healthcare professionals as possibly key to the extreme longevity of the Hunzas people of Kashmir (3).

Balsam Apple: Iodine and Metabolism Regulator

Also known as bitter melon, this fruit contains four bioactive compounds which activate a protein named AMPK. This has been studied at length for its role in regulating metabolism, and enabling glucose uptake processes in the body.
Mangoes and Dates

Dates are a rich source of selenium (needed for thyroid hormone production), and contain 23 types of amino acids within their proteins. Mangoes are the richest source of vitamin A (in the form of beta-carotene) – one mango provides 1½ times the RDA.


Then we add in some green leafy vegetables to the mix, and we have a nice raw vegan diet, which isn't lacking in anything. No need to kill and torture farm animals.

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I prefer to take Vegan Outreach's stance on veganism. There is only 1 valid reason for becoming vegan, and that is to reduce the amount of animal suffering and animal cruelty on the planet. All other reasons can, and as we see here, be argued.

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The largest meat eater that ever lived is the largest animal that ever lived. The blue whale and they are still around, enjoying the meat they so crave.

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The native peoples issues has been previously address. I will add this:
http://www.natural-connection.com/resource/macro_today/osteoporosis.html

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Where is the T-Rex? Same place all the other dinosaurs are, including the plant eaters. Incredibly bad argument.

Pretty much, whether or not you're vegan or vegetarian is an ethics thing. There's not enough evidence either way to claim veganism is better or eating meat is better.

Plants are alive, and so are animals. All animals have to kill *something* to live. Who are we to say animal life is worth more than plant life? We probably only feel that way because animals are more similar to us than plants. Which is a totally subjective thing.

I choose a balanced diet, eating meat and other animal products in moderation. For me, the ideal would be for everything I eat to be ethical and natural, whether it's a plant I grew myself or an animal I raised lovingly and killed myself.

I find this sort of article insulting to the intelligence of omnivores.

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I love vegetables of all sorts and fruits. My diet is mainly vegeterian, but I love meat once in a while. Whatever you say would not change my mind about meat.

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As soon as I read the title all I could think was, "Just open your mouth!" Lol. But seriously, I just don't see the appeal in eating something that had to give its life (plants may be alive but in an entirely different manner) just so I can gorge. Thanks for the post!

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Plants are alive, and so are animals. All animals have to kill *something* to live. Who are we to say animal life is worth more than plant life? We probably only feel that way because animals are more similar to us than plants. Which is a totally subjective thing.

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Thanks for sharing dear buddy keep it up. Everyone has right to say something. So, Everyone should keep it up. And share more ideas Thanks

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When you read through the post it's almost impossible to see why anyone would choose to eat meat. Beats me why people do so much harm to themselves and to others and to the planet. Ignorance is bliss I guess.