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From:	Millie (75.107.206.117)
Subject:	Re: Millie, I am very short of time right now
Date:	October 30, 2009 at 8:52 am PST

In Reply to: Millie, I am very short of time right now posted by Claire on October 29, 2009 at 3:00 pm:

I've been really busy this week. I haven't been online since the weekend. And the coming weeks and months (especially the holidays and the first quarter of next year) are only going to be even busier for me. As is true for all of us, I'm sure. We have many activities going on already and the holidays will be upon us shortly.

As I've read your replies to the last posts I made, I sadly realize that I have been wasting my time here. I really think we could have friendly discussions IRL, as I have many friends you would consider to be LW and we have done so for years. They know I cannot be put into an RW box, and we discuss issues instead of attacking each other. They acknowledge my concerns without dismissing them as "RW talking points", and even agree with some of them. Above all, we have mutual respect. It does get harder & harder to give credence to the claims made by conservatives with each day that goes by. When death panels & terrorist fist bumps are their daily news or when Beck says that Obama will track us through Onstar, it's a bit hard to swallow. I'm not laying those claims on you but I certainly don't see anyone on the right stepping up and telling their own side to simply tell the truth. That would help. Just the other day, two things happened: (1) an old relative, over the age of 80, had a concern about a hospital bill/situation and she was crying terribly over the phone because "just look what they've done to us with this bill! They'll take everything I own!" Now, first of all, what she was dealing with is the current system since no changes have been made and secondly she had been scared by her "news" source. What she dealt with is what needs to be changed --- not what has been changed. It's hard to be civil to people who defend the tactics that caused her fear. **and** (2) I heard the old "lying isn't against the law" defense about Beck's Onstar claims. If that's the only way a person can defend what they back, forget it, in my book. Again, I'm not placing any of that on your head but since you gave the background you have with your leftist friends, I thought I would fill you in on what I'm facing with RWers.

You have blatantly ignored things I have said and invented things I haven't said. [One example: Neither you (nor Jaq) ever replied to my point about Jesus' teaching in John 14:6 when I correlated it to the viewpoints of the people/curriculum she criticized. Instead, you falsely accused me of maligning Jaq, though I posted that scripture for the sole purpose of continuing the discussion about that issue.] You placed words on Jaq's head that *she* didn't say or imply. All you had to do was ASK her rather than accuse her of those things. We have a perfect right to give our opinion on those materials as we see them. I stand behind my opinions of those materials and their creators. Most of them are more political than religious and I see that as fact. If you felt maligned, I'm sure Jaq did too.

To clarify one more thing: Neither Dobson, nor Reed, nor Barton, is a pastor, they've never claimed to be pastors, and Jones wasn't mentioned in the article we were discussing. They claim to be evangelicals and they claim to spread the Word BUT what they do is spread their political viewpoint. *I* brought Jones into the conversation because it was relevant...maybe we disagree. It was conversation.

You've ignored what I have posted (for instance, you didn't clarify whether you see racists who live in Boston, Philly, Chicago, Idaho, etc, as rednecks), You have left many questions unanswered but can only yell about your own unanswered ones. I thought that surely you knew that I didn't mean that ALL racists were rednecks but perhaps most rednecks are racists. Please show me where you made the gigantic leap that I was speaking of everyone in a certain category. See? This is where it gets crazy --- if you misunderstood that sentence....forgive me for finding it unbelievable.

and you have also taken off on rabbit trails or thrown out red herrings in what has appeared to be an obvious ploy not to address things I did mention (such as racism which is not acknowledged or addressed because it is aimed at whites, or the fact that the LW doesn't cry "separation of church and state" when black preachers speak out passionately about government policy, often from church pulpits). Most of what you call "red herrings" are just simply the flow of discussion. I have answered more of your questions than you have answered of mine. I think the reason you brought this to the top of the page is so that you can point out only what you want to point out while ignoring what you have skipped! Would you call that a "red herring" or a "rabbit trail"? I call it deceitful. LOL

Since this has happened so often and since you have continued to falsely accuse me of things I'd already clarified differently, it appears there cannot be any resolution. It seems to me that you are not willing for there to be any resolution. Back at 'cha.

I will make it a point to come back here in a few months to see where our country stands then. That's all that really matters, after all. Endless arguments here are certainly not going to change anything. This site doesn't like "swan songs" but maybe you won't be deleted. I don't know what kind of answer you want here: "Oh, gee, let's behave before Claire returns!"?? Sour grapes have caused many outrageous behaviors and this might be one. (Please note the word "might" in that sentence)

IMO, this is the bottom line: Our government cannot borrow its way out of debt. They cannot borrow their way out of debt. They cannot borrow their way out of debt. A basic knowledge of economics gives the lie to that theory. And, in this case, it is YOU who has ignored every answer & discussion on this theory. Way to make your point that that's what others do! Ha! Please refer down the board to the probably over 50 replies to this type of hype.

And there is no way American taxpayers can carry the tax burden which would be required to implement all the changes Obama, Pelosi, Reid, et al, are promising us. PAYGO is being utilized --- there's a question YOU'VE never answered!! Reps hate PAYGO - at the very least, they don't use it -- why? Dems are using it. I see this post by you as a way to simply restate and regurgitate the RW mantra while ignoring all of the discussions below that already address them. This way, you ignore the answers below and just restate the claim.

We haven't even touched on the Cap and Trade bill, which would incur an even heavier tax burden. From all I've seen and read (none of which are RW sources), I believe it is based on a false premise and can only make the economy worse. Again, Dems are allowing Reps to water down too many bills while they then vote against them. Later, however, they take credit for whatever they voted against. When you come back "in months" maybe we'll get into Cap & Trade. I find it very telling that Reps didn't care about debt or death when Bush was in office --- and yes, that's relevant.

If I thought we could have an honest discourse on all the issues, I would continue to pursue that. Unfortunately, I have to face the fact that it is not possible at this time. I see that you take none of the responsibility on yourself. That's typical.

I bear you no ill will. Truly, it seems to me you are so emotionally invested in Obama/Pelosi/Reid/Dems in general and are so bitter at Bush/Cheney/GOP in general, that you are not willing to discuss the issues dispassionately. Bitter? At the people who placed us in the economic messes we are facing and who created a war based on lies and who outed a CIA agent and who hid the costs of war by taking it out of the budget (can you believe that his deficit didn't even include those numbers?). I think that those who defended the Bush era of deceit & debt & death should apologize.

And, again, the lies being told by those you defend are the problem. You linked to a video that claimed we "want everything for free" but that isn't honest debate at all because it's false. Now, you link to a video that asks "Is Obama Poised to Cede US Sovereignty" --- and you want serious debate over such stupid outrageous claims? You can't seriously add those types of links and then claim superiority in the area of debating! LOL But, I accept your insults with honor.

As I said, I'll be back in a few months to see if your rosy predictions about Obama and company have come true. I'm so scared. I'm sure that the sources you use won't acknowledge any accomplishments by this administration nor will you. Am I supposed to be afraid of your return? What kind of threat is it? I'll tell you what: I'll put Obama up against Bush any day of the week. Based on history,if Bush says "jump" and Obama says "duck" --- I'll duck. That you would jump is 'nuff said! I think that when RWers refuse to acknowledge the faults of what they voted for and defended, it is very telling. And, when they dramatically leave because they are asked to answer a few questions, it is a desperate move to ignore truth.

In the meantime, all the best to you and everyone else here. I wish the best for you. There has never been ill will from me toward you. People on the right seem to take my criticisms or questions about or toward Bush as a personal attack. I hope when you come back in a few months, that will not be so. I will continue to ask the relevant questions and will not stick strictly to a script that you decide should be adhered to. Have a good break.

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