(this is in response to your 5:03 PM message)

Jeff,

You are entitled to your own opinions but not to making up your own facts.

I don't dismiss the Herzog survey out of hand as you insinuate, rather I claim that it isn't a valuable resource for determining certain health claims because of what I previously stated. Please try not to put any more words in my mouth.

Next, who made you king? Please get out of your ivory tower and come all the way down to talk straight. For some reason you are presenting yourself as the know-it-all arbiter of what is and what isn't healthy. You knock Messina and Norris for advocating a "terrible" diet, “garbage foods”, and claim their evidence is "very poor" according to you. But you are acting creepy and you are quite dishonest in your crazy assertion that they use only the Psych Today article as the basis for their claims that the health argument often fails to keep people on a veg diet. You do the same thing insinuating that in spite of their entire wealth of nutritional knowledge or the conclusions they make based on years of studying nutrition and medical documentation, observation, and whatever else experiences they have in the field of nutrition, that somehow all of this makes them unqualified to give good nutritional advice and unworthy of your lofty stamp of approval. Otherwise, why would you even continue to reference ONLY that Psych Today article in the same breath that you condemn them as advocates of a terrible diet? That’s creepy what you are doing, Jeff.

If you bothered to be honest, you’d realize that instead of a “junk food-based vegan diet” (your words),
Messina in her book “Vegan For Life” actually advocates a healthy diet. For example, review the chapter titled “Vegan Food Guide” ( http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Life-Everything-Healthy-Plant-Based/dp/0738214930/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332182475&sr=8-1#reader_0738214930 ). You even have the gall to denounce one of the high sodium packaged products put out by Dr. McDougall’s Right Foods as “starting to look like the foods Messina and Norris promote” in one instance and then in another instance you respond to my mention of “other products” endorsed on McDougall’s website as being “perhaps downright not healthy” foods in the hundreds of packaged items promoted on McDougall’s own website in this dismissive tone of yours, “I don't see any in that list you linked to”, a list which contains products that are either high in sodium and/or contain plenty of unnecessary sugars and fats. For example, with a tiny bit of mouse clicking, were you actually interesting in learning something helpful to you, you would have found that among the foods promoted on McDougall’s site is this lovely specimen: http://www.tastethedream.com/products/product/1492/204.php . Review the other products endorsed on McDougall’s site….still think that you don’t see any that may be downright unhealthy….really Jeff?

In your pugnacious attitude claiming that I don’t know a thing about the McDougall program as well as your assertion “And if you knew about Dr. McDougall's program you would know he recommends packaged soups only for when you are traveling or in a situation where it is hard to get a healthy meal, in which case these will do in a pinch.” you fail miserably at understanding that for the hundreds of packaged products including the sugary fatty ones like the one linked to above, here’s what the DrMcDougall.com text reads for these packaged products: “This is an Updated Canned and Packaged Products List of items that can be used on the McDougall Program. Criteria for selection include, no animal products and limited soy protein and added oils. We also strive to keep refining and additives to a minimum. This list is far from complete and you are welcome to offer suggestions for products to be included. Check this list periodically for new additions.” Just so you are no longer in the dark about this Jeff, these packaged products are “items that can be used on the McDougall Program”. There’s no “in a pinch” or “only for when you are traveling” qualifiers, Jeff. Are you finally getting it now? Don’t you see how wrong you’ve been all this time? Read it again if you didn’t get it the first time around.

And just so you are aware that I won’t let you get away with your deceptive tactics, concerning some of the items in the entire list of McDougall endorsed products, I had written “perhaps downright not healthy” not “downright not healthy” as you had quoted me.…there is a difference and if you plan to quote people, quote them in context. You see, unlike you, I don’t pretend to be an authority on health and nutrition.

Jeff, you really are making some of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever seen. You are self-contradictory and all over the place with your claims.

You definitely have taken people’s words out of context; you are simply not honest enough to admit it.

Your assertion that only the vegan world nutrition people that you happen to agree with can be right is absurd Jeff. I won’t even argue this with you because to give that line of thinking a moment’s more time would be to acknowledge the utter nonsense that you concoct in your head.

Finally, Vegan Outreach doesn’t claim, as far as I know, that it is some kind of official authority on clinical nutrition. that’s your misperception perhaps, Jeff. Just because on one of their web pages is written what you have quoted does not mean that this is meant to be taken as professional nutritional counseling or advice. That’s just in your head, Jeff. There are probably tens of thousands of web pages that can be found on as many websites where things are written about food choices and diet and not a single one of these pages are meant to be taken as professional nutritional counseling or advice. But on a Dr. McDougall’s website, the same can not necessarily be said; after all, that’s Dr. McDougall’s professional life work.

Jeff,

You are definitely not paying attention or you have very serious reading comprehension issues.

I've already pointed out where you've quoted people out of context, stop playing a fool and address why you keep doing this. I've already pointed out several times where you have done this; if you are that much of a coward to address this behavior of yours, that's your deficit, not someone else's.

Of course you argue that the Psych Today article is the basis for their life's work conclusions...that's creepy that you have done that Jeff.

You can distort the truth all you want Jeff, it seems that you have perhaps a monetary interest in avoiding being honest about what is and what isn't allowed as part of the McDougall program. If you believe that Hip Whip and Cookies Rice Dream and a whole host of other sugar, sodium, and fat laden products isn't downright unhealthy then you have a radically dishonest appraisal of unhealthy foods and there's no point even discussing this issue with you. That would be like trying to discuss the issue of mistreatment of people with someone who believes slavery is acceptable. I won't engage with that person; I won't engage with you because there's no point.

Finally, in no way am I opposed to someone criticizing someone else BUT that criticism must be a qualified criticism and it must come from someone who doesn't take people's words out of context and doesn't make overly broad and sweeping dishonest generalizations. I actually have important things to do rather than waste my time arguing with someone who believes the crazy things you do, Jeff. Just because you went into a food bank and helped McDougall carry food or whatever it is you did to lend a hand doesn't in any way make you an authority on nutrition and doesn't make you professionally qualified to judge people who actually have taken the time and do the work to get legitimate nutrition degrees with your outlandish accusations. Obviously you don't even know the scope of Messina and Norris' studies and work in the field of nutrition. Why do you spew so much errant hatred at everyone you just happen to dislike for reasons unwarranted and misguided? There's something seriously wrong with you Jeff.

Good-bye, I'm done with your crap attitude.

I don't know where you're getting these smoking statistics from. I'm not extremely familiar with studies about cigarette smoke, but even a quick search on pubmed shows a lot of studies of social smoking or occasional smoking. And they all show that even limited smoking or second hand (or third hand)smoking is dangerous.

But that aside, smoking and eating meat are two different activities. A dangerous dose for one can't be compared to a dangerous dose for another.

I don't have a horse in this fight, but I think arguments for or against should be accurate and based on scientific consensus, not on the work of individuals.

Ha ! True words, Jeff.

I think more and more people are getting sick of the non-stop health-bashing coming out of the Norris / Ball / Messina quarters.

At the end of the day, I think they're confused about what they stand for and derive most of their identity from the shots they take at others in the veg world. Others who are far too busy saving lives (human and animal) to retaliate.

I hope Norris / Ball / Messina find their true calling some day.

Peace