The Spark of Reason
Hi Mark. You seem be getting more angry. I don't understand that. All I really want is an answer to the original question. I didn't even want to get dragged into a discussion of Dr. Campbell's behavior, since that is largely a matter of opinion and not science (though hats off to you for actually getting me off-topic).
I will wait for an answer to my original question. If nobody here knows, or if Dr. Campbell doesn't wish to step up and answer himself, I will go elsewhere to search for the answer, and come back here with what I find. It should be of general interest to all (including Dr. Campbell).
A couple of other parting notes: you've made a workman-like effort to "discredit" me based on "credentials". But I'm not selling anything here - I'm just looking for an answer to a specific question. I don't believe that asking questions requires "credentials".
And regardless of what you think of me, I would ask that you address Dr. Campbell as "Dr. Campbell", and not "Campbell". While I don't agree with much of what Dr. Campbell preaches, I do think he has at least earned the respect of his title.
"aren't you emotionally attached to the almost religious 'dogma' that meat eating is the better policy? In the same manner a devout Christian is attached to the dogma Creation and the Almighty God?"
No. If that were the case, then I wouldn't want to know the answer to my question "how does animal protein raise cholesterol." If presented with strong evidence of an underlying metabolic mechanism, I would be forced to choose between my beliefs, or invent rationalizations around why the undesirable answer was wrong.
Or I could just stick my fingers in my ears and shout "LALALALA". At any rate, were I strongly committed to dogma, the "smart" thing would be to not come here and ask questions that might shake my beliefs, but rather stick with the other "meat eaters" so we could prop up each others' confirmation biases.
BTW, I would invite any and all to come to my blog and ask tough questions. Like I said to Dr. Campbell, such open dialog is crucial in the search for the truth. And for what it's worth - I actually don't currently believe that eating meat is the only way to be healthy. I suspect it's the easiest way, but would also guess that a well-informed vegetarian (like those at beyondveg.com) could make it work as well. It's the "informed" part that is important, not the dogma of vegetarians vs. carnivores vs. ???
Hi Mark. Do you have an answer to my original question, or not?
Fine. I will look elsewhere for the answer. Thank you for your time. I apologize that the discussion seemed to have strayed from my original question, and that's partly my fault.
I'll also apologize for any perceived "attacks" on Dr. Campbell. The one thing I've taken away from this whole Denise Minger episode is a belief that Dr. Campbell is at least sincere in his beliefs, and not simply trying to sell his own brand of snake oil. I don't agree with him, but would be willing to find the source of that disagreement through discussion, if he changes his mind.
Sorry again to have caused upheaval here. I'll leave now before anybody else gets angry.
Posted by sparkofreason, March 8, 2014 at 01:24 PM
Posted by sparkofreason, March 8, 2014 at 09:08 AM
Posted by sparkofreason, March 6, 2014 at 05:00 AM
Posted by sparkofreason, March 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM
Mark, Spark's question is valid, in fact anybody's questions are valid, and he was quite reasonable. His question is interesting, and KEY to go from a somewhat informed omnivorous diet to an informed vegan/vegetarian diet, when Health is what is valued. I am vegetarian more because of my ethics than health, but some people are more interested in what diet would be optimal, not ethical. Plus defining well what an optimal diet REALLY is, its important regardless. A diet abundant with vegetables & leafy greens, herbs, Ancient grains (no wheat), some tubers & fruit, and supplemented with some quality animal protein and fat seems to be close to optimal, from what I've learned. Personally Im only interested in optimizing my vegetarian diet, but still itch to know what would be optimal, and what diets are best for treating & preventing illnesses like cancer. Steve Jobs didnt survive his cancer, and he was seemingly going with the Ornish approach (I am aware of the other problems that may have gotten in the way of sucessful diet/lifestyle intervention), now I would love to see someone that believes in a lower carb, meat, fat & plant rich diet, intervene with THAT diet and see if its more protective.
Would you take Ancel Keys seriously, simply because he was a Scientist? What about his flawed Lipid Hypothesis?
All people -- Scientists, Doctors, English Majors -- are fallible. The person of value and integrity is the one that can say "In light of this new data, I can see that my previous position was wrong."
People all over the world thrive on a variety of diets. Stop placing people on a pedestal and claiming their way is the "only" or the "right" way.
A fact is only a fact until it's proven wrong.
So many things over the last 50 years (especially) have been proven wrong. Yet, we keep the misinformation alive in the collective psyche by continuing to regurgitate it without actually doing our own research.
Example: "Everyone KNOWS that saturated fat causes heart disease!" Right? WRONG!
I'm not trying to convince anyone to eat meat, not eat meat, or debate anyone about the ethics of eating animals. That's none of my business.
What I AM suggesting, however, is to become TRULY informed, before rendering a life-altering decision about what you put into your body. Then, living with the consequences of your decision.
This means going beyond the headlines of CNN and Yahoo. It also means going into the opposition's camp with an inquisitive mind and a desire to find what's true for you -- not simply for the sake of being "right."
In closing, no matter what path people follow, I hope they do it with enough information from ALL sides. Then, they become responsible for their own health, rather than abdicating it to others. When we get so entrenched in a position, we become more concerned about being "right" than being "correct." I wish for everyone to thrive.
i know I'm coming to the discussion a bit late, but i appreciate tedoymisojos observation that Denise came at this (as does everyone) with a personal goal (bias) of solving her own health problem. i find it hard to argue with someone who doesn't feel good and works diligently to understand their own health issues. If we can compassionately look at the common ground between all these so called different diet approaches we can likely help each other on those topics we all agree on. Denise actually eats mostly vegan, and probably healthier than most vegans and vegetarians... despite a few bites of animal protein... no one really knows if she'll get cancer or heart disease, but if she feels better eating 10% meat, there's gotta be more to the holistic approach of health that Campbell has devoted his life to. I would love to see the two of them find common ground even if they disagree on 10-20%. i feel like they're 80% on the same page in terms of what they actually choose to eat.
Imagine if the Vegans, Vegetarians, Paleo's, Compassionate Omnivores, etc came together and worked for real change in the world - We all agree on getting rid of factory farms, big GMO/Pesticide Agriculture, getting rid of political corruption that promotes processed and harmful foods to kids (and adults) and lobbies for misleading marketing, big pharma's manipulation of the public into relying on drugs over holistic health and nutrition.
Maybe I'm just a dreamer, but i would drop my insistence on a 100% Whole Food Plant based diet to work together with Denise and others on the issues we DO agree on and make some real change!!!
One thing that you have to remember is that meat eaters are as addicted to meat as those who use heroin are to their drug.
Try to tell a heroin user, they should stop. They may find out once it is too late, but until then, they will stand firm in the idea that heroin is not damaging their health.
I have also learned to let people see the results by changes in me, then let them ask questions.
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